Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject: The satanic verses
ygalg wrote:
Islamists are praised for their capability to recite whole Koran, but what the use of learning the 'abrogated verses' for they are no longer a use?
Hello
There is no abrogated verses in the Quran, whoever told you that is either a liar or confused
I callenge any Muslim to show me an abrogated verse in the Quran,
They will be only allowed to use the Quran as evidence that some verses in it are abrogated
Hassan. wrote:
That's an interesting view Ahmad.
Of course you must be aware that scholars down the ages have said that verses were abrogated.
I'd be interested to hear your view on the verse in the Qur'an that says (something like) any verse that we remove or abrogate we replace with one better thereof.
ygalg wrote:
that is the Koranic Islamist position.
however the point why such a claim came to be existence.
the excuse of 'abrogated verses' invented by traditionalists, to cover the contradictions.
Hassan. wrote:
That's an interesting view Ahmad.
That is not a view bro, this is the truth that should make sense to a child, how the God put some verses in His book then leave it to the humans to abrogated it?, it was easy for Him not to include it in the Quran, in fact the propget DECLINED TO INCLUDE the alleged stoning verse , possibly it was abrogated by Allah if the story is true, well it makes sense that an abrogated verse IS NOT INCLUDED IN THE QURAN
on the other hand if the God includes some invalid verses in His book then leave it to the humans to work it out, it only means one thing to me, this god can not be trusted (astghfar Allah)
If you are going to call my understanding a VIEW then theirs is also a VIEW, you say mine is intersting and not theirs, well mine is intersting because it makes sense to a child, I will prove to you that every verse they lie and say is abrogated CAN NOT BE ABROGATED (when I have time of course)
Hassan. wrote:
Of course you must be aware that scholars down the ages have said that verses were abrogated.
Allah and Islam don't need enemies when we have such confused humans calling themselves Muslims
Hassan. wrote:
It's cool with me Ahmad - I only say that because you must agree that there are alot of scholars who accept the abrogated verses doctrine - and there is only one Ahmad Bahgat.
But I actually like your understanding. Though - to be honest - either way I couldn't care less.:)
Hassan. wrote:
I'd be interested to hear your view on the verse in the Qur'an that says (something like) any verse that we remove or abrogate we replace with one better thereof.
Salam Hassan
Sure, but let me start with other verses that told us about a story that happened in the past to Mohammad, in one of my latest comments I spoke about three statues that the Mushrikoon took as idols to get them closer to Allah, the idols names were Allat, Aluzza and Manat, as you know, according to the Quran, Satan and his progeny are working hard to flaw the believers, most importantly they desire to flaw the prophets and messengers carrying the message, this makes sense because if they do that to them, then the message will be transferred from its root flawed, however Allah will never allow Satan and his progeny to ever flaw a messenger that He choses, this action by Allah certainly protects the message root, however Satan will move to the next important target, it is all those who took a religious role, like the Sheikh, Muftis, Imams, Mullas and others, if Satan can flaw thoe then it is guranteed that generations will be flawed based on the flawed teachings by all those preys, this is not the subject of my comment though, what I'd like to focus on is how Satan tried to flaw Mohammad and how Allah intervened to prevent this from happening as He did with all His prophets
One day in the past Mohammad received a few verses from Jebril, the verses were talking about those three idols Allat, Aluzzah and Manat, these verses are the subject of the satanic verses by Salman Rushdi, the alleged verses goes like this:
{ أَفَرَأَيْتُمُ اللَّاتَ وَالْعُزَّى وَمَنَاة الثَّالِثَة الْأُخْرَى }
The first line is real verses in the Quran 53:19-20, the second however was what Satan tried to flaw Mohammad with, the second means like sort of praising those stone statues and wrongly highlighting their importance, let me bring the real verses first:
19: Have you seen the Lat and the Uzza,
20: And Manat, the third, the last?
21: What! for you the males and for Him the females!
22: This indeed is an unjust division!
23: They are naught but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent for them any authority. They follow naught but conjecture and the low desires which (their) souls incline to; and certainly the guidance has come to them from their Lord. [The Quran ; 53:19-23]
أَفَرَأَيْتُمُ اللَّاتَ وَالْعُزَّى (19)
وَمَنَاةَ الثَّالِثَةَ الْأُخْرَى (20)
أَلَكُمُ الذَّكَرُ وَلَهُ الْأُنثَى (21)
تِلْكَ إِذًا قِسْمَةٌ ضِيزَى (22)
إِنْ هِيَ إِلَّا أَسْمَاء سَمَّيْتُمُوهَا أَنتُمْ وَآبَاؤُكُم مَّا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ بِهَا مِن سُلْطَانٍ إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلَّا الظَّنَّ وَمَا تَهْوَى الْأَنفُسُ وَلَقَدْ جَاءهُم مِّن رَّبِّهِمُ الْهُدَى (23)
-> When Mohammad wrongly recited the verses as Satan tried to flaw him, the Mushrikoon rejoiced and liked Mohammad, however, Jebril later on informed Mohammad with what Satan did to him, of course it caused a lot of distress to the prophet, anyway as you can see above from the real verses that Allah indeed condemns those man mad gods.
The above story was the reason for a few verses to be revealed, those verses are actually talking about the NASKH concept, wjhich we will see it means that the wrong verses are totally replaced by the true verses, i.e. the abrogated verses are not included in the quran , let's see how Allah informed us with this fact about Naskh
52: And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, but when he desired, the Shaitan made a suggestion respecting his desire; but Allah abolishes that which the Shaitan casts, then does Allah establish His communications, and Allah is Knowing, Wise,
53: So that He may make what the Shaitan casts a trial for those in whose hearts is disease and those whose hearts are hard; and most surely the unjust are in a great opposition,
54: And that those who have been given the knowledge may know that it is the truth from your Lord, so they may believe in it and their hearts may be lowly before it; and most surely Allah is the Guide of those who believe into a right path.
55: And those who disbelieve shall not cease to be in doubt concerning it until the hour overtakes them suddenly, or there comes on them the chastisement of a destructive day. [The Quran ; 22:52:53]
وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ مِن رَّسُولٍ وَلَا نَبِيٍّ إِلَّا إِذَا تَمَنَّى أَلْقَى الشَّيْطَانُ فِي أُمْنِيَّتِهِ فَيَنسَخُ اللَّهُ مَا يُلْقِي الشَّيْطَانُ ثُمَّ يُحْكِمُ اللَّهُ آيَاتِهِ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ (52)
لِيَجْعَلَ مَا يُلْقِي الشَّيْطَانُ فِتْنَةً لِّلَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ وَالْقَاسِيَةِ قُلُوبُهُمْ وَإِنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ لَفِي شِقَاقٍ بَعِيدٍ (53)
-> verse 52, we read what the Shaitan is always keen to do with all the messengers : And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, but when he desired, the Shaitan made a suggestion respecting his desire', that is exactly as in the case of the satanic verses explained earlier, what Allah is going to do to protect the integrity of His messengers is simple, Allah will simply Yansakh DELETE, ABOLISH, not really abrogate as many lie about the meaning of the word Yansakh, here is what Allah did to the satanic verses in Arabic فَيَنسَخُ اللَّهُ مَا يُلْقِي الشَّيْطَانُ, Fa YANSAKH Allah Ma Yulqi Al Shaitan, i.e. ; but Allah abolishes that which the Shaitan casts, , i.e. the verses WERE DELETED BY ALLAH, do we see the satanic verses in the Quran?, well, I posted the Quran verses above 53:19-23, again kafirs or confused Muslims, do we see the satanic verses in the Quran?, i.e. the action of NASKH is simply, not including it in the Quran., if Naskh means to include it in the Quran but ignore it then this is a massive contradiction on its own. What we should notice that till this day, the kafirs still argue about those satanic verses despite they are not found in any Quran, they must be sick kafirs indeed, well, this is what Allah told us in the following verse: So that He may make what the Shaitan casts a trial for those in whose hearts is disease and those whose hearts are hard;, they are certainly sick, they are following something that was never part of the Quran DELETED by Allah, yet they lie and claim it is part of the Quran., sort of when we tell them sorry what you are talking about is not part of the Quran yet they oppose it and most surely the unjust are in a great opposition, LOL, ok kafirs, can you show me the satanic verses in any Quran?.
As we have seen above the action of Naskh means to abolish/delete/not include, let me now look at the verse you mentioned (2:106), I will leave the words that I'm disputing with the kafirs and the confused Muslim untranslated (underlined:
Whatever Ayah We Nansakh or cause it to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things? [The Quran ; 2:106]
مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ آيَةٍ أَوْ نُنسِهَا نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِّنْهَا أَوْ مِثْلِهَا أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللّهَ عَلَىَ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ (106)
-> Ok mate, the first words are مَا نَنسَخْ , Ma Nansakh, i.e. according to 22:52 that was explained earlier the words should mean WHATEVER WE DELETE, or WHATEVER WE ABOLISH i.e. if whatever is about a verse in the Quran then that verse was DELETED/ABOLISHED and does not exist in the Quran neither it ever existed in it from day one. However I disagree that the word Ayah in this particular verse means VERSE, in fact it can never mean VERSE as I will show, the WHATEVER that was DELETED/ABOLISHED is stated as follow: مِنْ آيَةٍ , i.e. Min Ayah, now the word Ayah common meaning is Sign, the Quran used it numerously as such , however the traditionalists claim that the word Ayah in the above verse means a VERSE from the Quran
Here is an example for the word Ayah that means a Sign:
He said, My Lord, give me an Ayah. He said, Your Ayah is that you will not speak to people for three consecutive nights. [The Quran ; 19:10]
Here is another example that it means a Sign:
And the folk of Noah, when they disbelieved the messengers, We have drowned them and set an Ayah of them for all people. [The Quran ; 25:37]
Another example goes like this:
And We supported Moses with nine great Ayaat. [The Quran ; 17:101]
But I also don't deny that the word Ayah can also mean a verse in the Quran, here is an example:
This is a book that We have sent down to you that is sacred, perhaps they will reflect on its Ayaat (verses). [The Quran ; 38:29]
To solve this slight problem we need to look deep in 2:106 for any hints that can confirm if the word Ayah means a Sign or a Verse
-> the next words after what I discussed so far is a clear hint, here it is: أَوْ نُنسِهَا, i.e. Aw Nunsiha, i.e. or cause it to be forgotten , now, this can not be applicable if the word Ayah in this verse means a VERSE in the Quran. How can a verse in the Quran be forgotten?
Even if the verse was abrogated by another (as the traditionalists falsely claim), it will still be part of the Quran and therefore can never be forgotten. i.e. the word Ayah in 2:106 has to mean a Sign
-> The following words also give us a couple of hints that the the word Auah can not mean an abrogated verse in the Quran in this particlular verse, the words are: نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِّنْهَا أَوْ مِثْلِهَا, i.e. Naat Bi Khair Minha Aw Mithliha, i.e. We bring one better than it or like it., firstly Bi Khair Min means BETTER ONE THAN, i.e. and according to their understanding, Allah will bring another verse that is better than the original verse but I have to say that this action by Allah does not deny that the original verse is bad that should not be followed, rather the new one is better. Secondly, the word Aw Mithliha means OR IDENTICAL TO IT now, I have to ask, how can you abrogate a verse with an identical verse?, does not add up indeed
From those three compelling hints the word Ayah in 2:106 CAN NOT MEAN A VERSE IN THE QURAN, yet even if they insist that it does THEN THE WORD YANSAKH MEANS THAT THE ORIGINAL WAS DELETED AND IS NOT PART OF THE QURAN ANY MORE EXACTLY AS THE SATANIC VERSES.
By applying the common meaning a sign to the word Ayah in 2:106, then all the words of the verse would make perfect sense. The words cause it to be forgotten can apply to the meaning a sign that is what normally happens as time passes by. Many signs mentioned in the Quran are actually forgotten by many even existing or past signs. The believers however only believe in past signs because they are mentioned in the Quran and if they were not then it will be forgotten to them.
Also the words "We bring one better than it or like it" should be valid with the signs of God, let's look at the following verses:
46: And certainly We sent Musa with (Ayaatina) Our Signs to Firon and his chiefs, so he said: Surely I am the messenger of the Lord of the worlds.
47: But when he came to them with (Ayaatina) Our signs, behold they laughed at them.
48: And We did not show them (Ayah) a sign but it was greater than its like, and We overtook them with chastisement that they may turn. [The Quran ; 43:46-48]
وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا مُوسَى بِآيَاتِنَا إِلَى فِرْعَوْنَ وَمَلَئِهِ فَقَالَ إِنِّي رَسُولُ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ (46)
فَلَمَّا جَاءهُم بِآيَاتِنَا إِذَا هُم مِّنْهَا يَضْحَكُونَ (47)
وَمَا نُرِيهِم مِّنْ آيَةٍ إِلَّا هِيَ أَكْبَرُ مِنْ أُخْتِهَا وَأَخَذْنَاهُم بِالْعَذَابِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَرْجِعُونَ (48)
-> See above how the word Ayah was used 3 times (once in each verse), can you see how it can only mean a sign and can not mean a verse in the Quran?, in 43:48 we read that Allah kept sending signs which were: We did not show them (Ayah) a sign but it was greater than its like
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