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Post subject: Re: Chapter 2 - Al-Baqara ( The Cow )
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Al-Baqara (The Cow)
Introduction
To be edited......
Very good, Ahmed.
What are you going to edit? The translation? Do you think we should add commentary to the translation?
Salaams
BMZ
Posted:
Fri 28 Sep, 2007 2:40 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Post subject: Re: Chapter 2 - Al-Baqara ( The Cow )
BMZ wrote:
Very good, Ahmed.
What are you going to edit? The translation? Do you think we should add commentary to the translation?
Salaams
BMZ
Salam brother
I want to give a summary for every Sura, sort of what it will be talking about in brief, exactly as Sura 1
You can help bro if you desire and I won't say no of course
Commentary is a must and again if you can help, it will be great, I say if you can do the History related commentary, it will be great, I will do the commenatry regarding the tough word meaning and
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Post subject: Re:
Salam brother AB good job last week i thinking whats happening to the Al Quran project Alhamdullillaah its still on.
Let me know what can i do for you broteher.
Posted:
Sat 29 Sep, 2007 4:44 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Post subject: Re:
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
Salam brother AB good job last week i thinking whats happening to the Al Quran project Alhamdullillaah its still on.
Let me know what can i do for you broteher.
Thanks brother
I'm planning to do 20 verses eveyday inshaallah, it will take me at least 300 days, any help you can do brother will be appreciated, commentaries, history record etc etc
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Sat 29 Sep, 2007 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Sat 29 Sep, 2007 2:56 pm
SlaveofAllaah Site Admin
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Post subject: Re:
Insha Allaah i will try to get the best of sources, and try to put in the history. Insha Allaah.
Posted:
Sat 29 Sep, 2007 7:09 pm
Rigel Pawn
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Salam dost log!
Heres a link to Syed Abul-Ala' Maududi about historical background. I read few lines and am full of questions about it, its confusing to me! anyway have a look http://www.islam101.com/quran/maududi/index.htm
Posted:
Mon 08 Oct, 2007 9:56 am
BMZ Moderator
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Post subject:
Rigel wrote:
Salam dost log!
Heres a link to Syed Abul-Ala' Maududi about historical background. I read few lines and am full of questions about it, its confusing to me! anyway have a look http://www.islam101.com/quran/maududi/index.htm
Greetings, Dost
Please feel free to put a few questions at a reasonable pace.
BMZ
Posted:
Mon 08 Oct, 2007 1:47 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Post subject:
Salam All,
Finally I have finished the first check of sura 2 translation, the translation took 15 days and the check took 3 days, this resulted in a change of my plan
I won?????????????????????¢??t prepare all the tough issues in another comment for each sura, it just takes a lot of time and I can?????????????????????¢??t afford to mock around while I have the rest of the Quran to finish inshaallah
The sura will stay draft for a year and during that time I will welcome any feedback
A couple of issues that I still have to check in sura 2
1) the words order
2) the verbs tense
as you might have noticed that in many verses FI translation is totally different to the common ones, I will use the following verse as an example:
25- And give glad tidings to those who believed and did good deeds, that they shall have gardens where rivers flow beneath it, whenever they are given from it a plant produce as a subsistence, they said: This is what was provided to us before; and they were given the like of it, and for them in it pure partners, and they shall in it abide. [Al Quran ; 2:25]
-> What I would like to discuss with you is the underlined sentence which is repeated in the Quran numerous times, the sentence is as follow:
وَهُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ, Wa Hum Fiha Khalidoon, it talks about the status of the Jannah dwellers that they shall abide in it, see how I just wrote it they shall Abide in it?????????????????????¢??????????????????????, however in Arabic, it was not said like that, rather they shall in it abide, normally in Arabic you say it the same way in English ie, Hum Khalidoon Fiha, but in the Quran it is always said as seen above Hum Fiha Khlidoon, this is a very high Balagha indeed, because saying in such way must take the attention of the one who is hearing it because it is not said the common and certainly human way, Allah used such Balagha intensively, I believe that is one of the reasons most Arabic speakers were impressed by the language of the Quran, therefore I believe FI translation must reflect such beauty in the language and be translated the way I proposed above, I still believe it is not 100% accurate because the sentence is giving us an adjective for those in the jannah, the adjective which should be the noun of Abide, let me suggest the word Everlasting (not sure if fits) as a proposal to make it 100% accurate, ie it may be as follow:
وَهُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ, Wa Hum Fiha Khalidoon, ?????????????????????¢??????????????????????They are in it everlasting.?????????????????????¢??????????????????????
I suppose there should be a comma after the word it, ie. ?????????????????????¢??????????????????????They are in it, everlasting.?????????????????????¢??????????????????????
The following translations are the most 3 common ones, please compare with FI ones:
YUSUFALI: But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (for ever).
PICKTHAL: And give glad tidings (O Muhammad) unto those who believe and do good works; that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow; as often as they are regaled with food of the fruit thereof, they say: this is what was given us aforetime; and it is given to them in resemblance. There for them are pure companions; there for ever they abide.
SHAKIR: And convey good news to those who believe and do good deeds, that they shall have gardens in which rivers flow; whenever they shall be given a portion of the fruit thereof, they shall say: This is what was given to us before; and they shall be given the like of it, and they shall have pure mates in them, and in them, they shall abide.
Please let me know what do you think because if it makes sense to most of you then I will fix the translation but yet I?????????????????????¢??m keeping the Quran style of the words order as much as I can, I believe in very rare verses I won?????????????????????¢??t be able to keep the word order, but to my surprise I found that most can be translated in the exact word order and yet make sense but most importantly it will reflect the exact words in Arabic and its unhuman beauty.
For the verbs, I found that FI translation should reflect the tense of each verb, I already started doing so but yet to check all verbs in sura 2
I will keep adding my thoughts in individual comments as it come to my mind while doing the rest of the Quran, I will start translating sura 3 soon inshaallah
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Post subject:
Salam All,
Hope everyone had a great Ramadan, I just started translating sura 3, however I can?????????????????????¢??t stop thinking about how to make the translation of sura 2 more accurate therefore I will discuss with you today one of the issues I faced, it is these words وما الله بغافل عما تعملون , Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Taamaloon, literally it means And Allah is not ignorant of what you do
Some times it is said as follow: Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Yaamaloon, literally it means And Allah is not ignorant of what they do
I hesitated to use the word ignorant in a sentence that Allah is mentioned in it, I tried to use something like not aware but I found it really hard to deny the denial, like this Allah is not -not aware-, it sounded very odd to me, so I came up with this:
Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Taamaloon, Not literally it means And it is not fit that Allah is not aware of what you do
However after having a triple thought, I believe I should stick to the literal which is And Allah is not ignorant of what you do, what made me change my mind that He was the One who used the word Ghafil, therefore I have to translate it literally.
Before I change it in the 4 locations in sura 2 I would like to hear any feedback or suggestions from any one.
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Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam All,
Hope everyone had a great Ramadan, I just started translating sura 3, however I can?????????????????????¢??t stop thinking about how to make the translation of sura 2 more accurate therefore I will discuss with you today one of the issues I faced, it is these words وما الله بغافل عما تعملون , Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Taamaloon, literally it means And Allah is not ignorant of what you do
Some times it is said as follow: Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Yaamaloon, literally it means And Allah is not ignorant of what they do
I hesitated to use the word ignorant in a sentence that Allah is mentioned in it, I tried to use something like not aware but I found it really hard to deny the denial, like this Allah is not -not aware-, it sounded very odd to me, so I came up with this:
Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Taamaloon, Not literally it means And it is not fit that Allah is not aware of what you do
However after having a triple thought, I believe I should stick to the literal which is And Allah is not ignorant of what you do, what made me change my mind that He was the One who used the word Ghafil, therefore I have to translate it literally.
Before I change it in the 4 locations in sura 2 I would like to hear any feedback or suggestions from any one.
Salam
Salaams, Ahmed
Your earlier approach is perfectly correct. In fact that is closer to the real meanings.
How about "And it is not that Allah is unaware of what you do." Unaware is close to Gahfil.
BMZ
Posted:
Tue 23 Oct, 2007 5:02 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Post subject:
BMZ wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam All,
Hope everyone had a great Ramadan, I just started translating sura 3, however I can?????????????????????¢??t stop thinking about how to make the translation of sura 2 more accurate therefore I will discuss with you today one of the issues I faced, it is these words وما الله بغافل عما تعملون , Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Taamaloon, literally it means And Allah is not ignorant of what you do
Some times it is said as follow: Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Yaamaloon, literally it means And Allah is not ignorant of what they do
I hesitated to use the word ignorant in a sentence that Allah is mentioned in it, I tried to use something like not aware but I found it really hard to deny the denial, like this Allah is not -not aware-, it sounded very odd to me, so I came up with this:
Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Taamaloon, Not literally it means And it is not fit that Allah is not aware of what you do
However after having a triple thought, I believe I should stick to the literal which is And Allah is not ignorant of what you do, what made me change my mind that He was the One who used the word Ghafil, therefore I have to translate it literally.
Before I change it in the 4 locations in sura 2 I would like to hear any feedback or suggestions from any one.
Salam
Salaams, Ahmed
Your earlier approach is perfectly correct. In fact that is closer to the real meanings.
How about "And it is not that Allah is unaware of what you do." Unaware is close to Gahfil.
BMZ
Thanks dear brother what you say makes sense and I decided to use your propsed translation, sounds cool to me
Status: Age: 76 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam All,
Finally I have finished the first check of sura 2 translation, the translation took 15 days and the check took 3 days, this resulted in a change of my plan
I won?????????????????????¢??t prepare all the tough issues in another comment for each sura, it just takes a lot of time and I can?????????????????????¢??t afford to mock around while I have the rest of the Quran to finish inshaallah
The sura will stay draft for a year and during that time I will welcome any feedback
A couple of issues that I still have to check in sura 2
1) the words order
2) the verbs tense
as you might have noticed that in many verses FI translation is totally different to the common ones, I will use the following verse as an example:
25- And give glad tidings to those who believed and did good deeds, that they shall have gardens where rivers flow beneath it, whenever they are given from it a plant produce as a subsistence, they said: This is what was provided to us before; and they were given the like of it, and for them in it pure partners, and they shall in it abide. [Al Quran ; 2:25]
-> What I would like to discuss with you is the underlined sentence which is repeated in the Quran numerous times, the sentence is as follow:
وَهُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ, Wa Hum Fiha Khalidoon, it talks about the status of the Jannah dwellers that they shall abide in it, see how I just wrote it they shall Abide in it?????????????????????¢??????????????????????, however in Arabic, it was not said like that, rather they shall in it abide, normally in Arabic you say it the same way in English ie, Hum Khalidoon Fiha, but in the Quran it is always said as seen above Hum Fiha Khlidoon, this is a very high Balagha indeed, because saying in such way must take the attention of the one who is hearing it because it is not said the common and certainly human way, Allah used such Balagha intensively, I believe that is one of the reasons most Arabic speakers were impressed by the language of the Quran, therefore I believe FI translation must reflect such beauty in the language and be translated the way I proposed above, I still believe it is not 100% accurate because the sentence is giving us an adjective for those in the jannah, the adjective which should be the noun of Abide, let me suggest the word Everlasting (not sure if fits) as a proposal to make it 100% accurate, ie it may be as follow:
وَهُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ, Wa Hum Fiha Khalidoon, ?????????????????????¢??????????????????????They are in it everlasting.?????????????????????¢??????????????????????
I suppose there should be a comma after the word it, ie. ?????????????????????¢??????????????????????They are in it, everlasting.?????????????????????¢??????????????????????
The following translations are the most 3 common ones, please compare with FI ones:
YUSUFALI: But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (for ever).
PICKTHAL: And give glad tidings (O Muhammad) unto those who believe and do good works; that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow; as often as they are regaled with food of the fruit thereof, they say: this is what was given us aforetime; and it is given to them in resemblance. There for them are pure companions; there for ever they abide.
SHAKIR: And convey good news to those who believe and do good deeds, that they shall have gardens in which rivers flow; whenever they shall be given a portion of the fruit thereof, they shall say: This is what was given to us before; and they shall be given the like of it, and they shall have pure mates in them, and in them, they shall abide.
Please let me know what do you think because if it makes sense to most of you then I will fix the translation but yet I?????????????????????¢??m keeping the Quran style of the words order as much as I can, I believe in very rare verses I won?????????????????????¢??t be able to keep the word order, but to my surprise I found that most can be translated in the exact word order and yet make sense but most importantly it will reflect the exact words in Arabic and its unhuman beauty.
For the verbs, I found that FI translation should reflect the tense of each verb, I already started doing so but yet to check all verbs in sura 2
I will keep adding my thoughts in individual comments as it come to my mind while doing the rest of the Quran, I will start translating sura 3 soon inshaallah
Take care all
Ahmed,
I will add my thoughts on this later.
Salaams
BMZ
Posted:
Tue 23 Oct, 2007 8:08 am
BMZ Moderator
Status: Age: 76 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Jun 12, 2007
Posts: 614
Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
BMZ wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam All,
Hope everyone had a great Ramadan, I just started translating sura 3, however I can?????????????????????¢??t stop thinking about how to make the translation of sura 2 more accurate therefore I will discuss with you today one of the issues I faced, it is these words وما الله بغافل عما تعملون , Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Taamaloon, literally it means And Allah is not ignorant of what you do
Some times it is said as follow: Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Yaamaloon, literally it means And Allah is not ignorant of what they do
I hesitated to use the word ignorant in a sentence that Allah is mentioned in it, I tried to use something like not aware but I found it really hard to deny the denial, like this Allah is not -not aware-, it sounded very odd to me, so I came up with this:
Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Taamaloon, Not literally it means And it is not fit that Allah is not aware of what you do
However after having a triple thought, I believe I should stick to the literal which is And Allah is not ignorant of what you do, what made me change my mind that He was the One who used the word Ghafil, therefore I have to translate it literally.
Before I change it in the 4 locations in sura 2 I would like to hear any feedback or suggestions from any one.
Salam
Salaams, Ahmed
Your earlier approach is perfectly correct. In fact that is closer to the real meanings.
How about "And it is not that Allah is unaware of what you do." Unaware is close to Gahfil.
BMZ
Thanks dear brother what you say makes sense and I decided to use your propsed translation, sounds cool to me
cheers
Now you know why I mentioned the word "nightmare" (not in a bad sense but rather in toughness of the mission) for translators?
Thanks & Cheers
BMZ
Posted:
Tue 23 Oct, 2007 8:11 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Salam bro BMZ and all,
Sorry for the late reply mate, got busy with my work that was accumulated on me while translating sura 2, 20 verses a day, I actually can't do that with the rest of the Quran, I was a bit over optimistic, what I will do is some how distribute my time between what I have to do and of course translating the Quran is a high priority between?????????????????????¢??s
anyway, here is another tough issue that I faced in sura 2, I will appreciate your feedback because as you proved already to us that your feedback is a great help, btw after finishing all the tough issues then we will edit sura 2 to what we all agreed on
the next one may be simple however it stumped me for a long time man,
in the Quran we have two common words that were used numerous times, the two words are so common that they are even used in public language by the Arabs
the first word is احسان, Ihsaan, the word is actually simple t translate, I believe it means Kindness
however most of the times another word appears with the above word
the second word is معروف, Maroof, this is actually a tough word to translate, for the first glance I thought it means Kindness, but that has to be wrong because in many verses both appear together describing two things that are opposite,
The divorce is (allowed) twice, then keeping (the wives) lawfully or let (the wives) go with kindness; and it is not lawful for you to take any thing of what you have given them (the wives), unless both fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah; so if you fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah, then there should be no blame on them for what she has sacrificed with; these are the limits of Allah, therefore do not exceed it and whoever exceeds the limits of Allah, then these are the unjust. [Al Quran ; 2:229]
-> the above verse is talking about divorce, and it tells the men to either keep their wives with Maaroof or let them go with Ihasan
as you can see, Maaroof was used to describe keeping the wives and Ihsaan was used to describe letting them go
you can also see that I translated the word Ihasan to kindness, however for the word Maaroof, I translated it to lawfully
my problem is with the word Maaroof ads I stated earlier, the word is so common in Arabic and it can may mean two things:
1) is known
2) a favour
in fact the word I'iml Maroof is very common in the day to day life of the Arabs, it means Do a favour
the main meaning of word is is known this is coming from the verb Arafa which is to know, however Maaroof is on the wazn of Maafool, i.e. it means: is Known
that is why it is (interchangeably) used with the meaning Favour because a favour is something that is certainly KNOWN between the parties involved, sort of because it is known then the one who had the favour done to him knows that he has to pay it back one day without being reminded, sort of a common LAW that is KNOWN, in fact in the very primitive areas in the middle east in many countries the communities have their own law and it is called Aruf, i.e. it became law by commonly known, i.e. common law.
that is why I translated it to Lawfully, i.e. when we keep the wives then we should keep them not to abuse them rather keep them LAWFULLY, and the law here is the Quran
In other locations btw, it can't be lawfully, and that is why I'm stumped
What do you think bro?
Cheers
Posted:
Sat 27 Oct, 2007 1:32 am
BMZ Moderator
Status: Age: 76 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Jun 12, 2007
Posts: 614
Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam bro BMZ and all,
Sorry for the late reply mate, got busy with my work that was accumulated on me while translating sura 2, 20 verses a day, I actually can't do that with the rest of the Quran, I was a bit over optimistic, what I will do is some how distribute my time between what I have to do and of course translating the Quran is a high priority between?????????????????????¢??s
anyway, here is another tough issue that I faced in sura 2, I will appreciate your feedback because as you proved already to us that your feedback is a great help, btw after finishing all the tough issues then we will edit sura 2 to what we all agreed on
the next one may be simple however it stumped me for a long time man,
in the Quran we have two common words that were used numerous times, the two words are so common that they are even used in public language by the Arabs
the first word is احسان, Ihsaan, the word is actually simple t translate, I believe it means Kindness
however most of the times another word appears with the above word
the second word is معروف, Maroof, this is actually a tough word to translate, for the first glance I thought it means Kindness, but that has to be wrong because in many verses both appear together describing two things that are opposite,
The divorce is (allowed) twice, then keeping (the wives) lawfully or let (the wives) go with kindness; and it is not lawful for you to take any thing of what you have given them (the wives), unless both fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah; so if you fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah, then there should be no blame on them for what she has sacrifised herself; these are the limits of Allah, therefore do not exceed it and whoever exceeds the limits of Allah, then these are the unjust. [Al Quran ; 2:229]
-> the above verse is talking about divorce, and it tells the men to either keep their wives with Maaroof or let them go with Ihasan
as you can see, Maaroof was used to describe keeping the wives and Ihsaan was used to describe letting them go
you can also see that I translated the word Ihasan to kindness, however for the word Maaroof, I translated it to lawfully
my problem is with the word Maaroof ads I stated earlier, the word is so common in Arabic and it can may mean two things:
1) is known
2) a favour
in fact the word I'iml Maroof is very common in the day to day life of the Arabs, it means Do a favour
the main meaning of word is is known this is coming from the verb Arafa which is to know, however Maaroof is on the wazn of Maafool, i.e. it means: is Known
that is why it is (interchangeably) used with the meaning Favour because a favour is something that is certainly KNOWN between the parties involved, sort of because it is known then the one who had the favour done to him knows that he has to pay it back one day without being reminded, sort of a common LAW that is KNOWN, in fact in the very primitive areas in the middle east in many countries the communities have their own law and it is called Aruf, i.e. it became law by commonly known, i.e. common law.
that is why I translated it to Lawfully, i.e. when we keep the wives then we should keep them not to abuse them rather keep them LAWFULLY, and the law here is the Quran
In other locations btw, it can't be lawfully, and that is why I'm stumped
What do you think bro?
Cheers
Salaams, Ahmed
Thanks for your kind words. I will try my best to explain the difference between the usage of the words Ihsaan and Ma'aroof in the verses. But before we do that, all of us should keep in mind that the language of Qur'aan is the language which was spoken by the tribes of Mecca and Quraish.
There are many people still living in the vicinity of Mecca and they are coming directly from the generations of people from the prophet's time. Many scholars have gone and lived among them just for the sake of the knowledge of Meccan Arabic, it's idioms, proverbs, satire, figuratives, etc,
If all of us try to translate and understand Qur'aan on the basis of our knowledge of modern Arabic, we will encounter difficulty in explaining, as the meanings, in English, will not be the same and it would be very hard to find the right words in English. I was also stumped for a long time, you are not alone, bro.
I don't have any Arabic software or keyboard, so please allow me to explain verse by verse:
"At-talaaqo mar-rataan". Most scholars translate this verse as "Divorce is permitted twice."
This means a divorce can be revoked twice. This comes as a warning that there should be no more divorce after two pronounced and that would be the last chance to save a marriage. After the third divorce is announced, it is all gone and the marriage ends.
Now we come to "Fa-imsaa-kum bema'arufin au tasreehum be-ahsaan.", which simply means,"So hold it together fairly or part nicely."
In other words, if you want to stick together, hold it together in all mutual fairness or part in a good manner.
I have thus made slight changes in your translation and hope you agree with it.
"The divorce is (allowed) twice. They should hold together in all fairness or part nicely; and it is not lawful for you (men) to take any thing of what you (men) have given them (the wives), unless both fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah; so if you (the judges) fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah, then there should be no blame on them for what she has given up to free herself. These are the limits of Allah, therefore do not exceed it and whoever exceeds the limits of Allah, then these are the unjust.
[Al Quran ; 2:229]
You must have noted that the words on their own have varying meanings but in the usage of Qur'aan's Arabic, the meanings are not exactly what they are in modern Arabic.
Does this help, bro? Please advise. You gave me a very tough assignment but I am glad you gave me the chance of earning some sawaab. JazakAllah. Good Night. Had a very tiring day but this was more important.
Verses like "wa ahsinoo" meaning "and do good" and "Wa Ahsin kamaa ahasanallaho ilaika" meaning "And do good like Allah has done good for you" are clearly talking about "doing good" or "being good".
In Surah Luqmaan, "ya bunaiyya aqimis-salaata wamur bil-ma'arufay wanha anil munkaray" clearly shows the usage of the words in their own meanings, which are "O my son, establish prayers regularly, enjoin what is just and forbid what is wrong." Now the word Ma'aroof here means just, right and good. Mukar can be unjust, wrong and evil. You see bro, how tough is the choice of the words?
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