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Bring it on - Muhammad's words apart from the Quran
- Fri 25 Dec, 2009 3:25 am
Post subject: Muhammad's words apart from the Quran
I think it is unreasonable to suppose that Muhammad never spoke anything apart from the Quranic verses.

What do you say about the possibility that he might have commented upon or explained some verses at one point or another? I certainly do think that is a possibility, and if that is the case, would it be wrong to refer to his words regarding a verse (assuming that his words were accessible at any point in time)?
- Fri 25 Dec, 2009 5:52 am
Post subject: Re: Muhammad's words apart from the Quran
The wrote:
I think it is unreasonable to suppose that Muhammad never spoke anything apart from the Quranic verses.

What do you say about the possibility that he might have commented upon or explained some verses at one point or another? I certainly do think that is a possibility, and if that is the case, would it be wrong to refer to his words regarding a verse (assuming that his words were accessible at any point in time)?


Salam mate

Of course he and many others during his time should have said many things that were positive and even compatible with the Quran, but that is not the issue, hearing positive things can be from anyone really, even from non muslims, the issue is the harm and division these man made books caused to the Islamic Ummah, consequently these man made books must be burnt

Certainly its harm far outweigh the benefit it has. Also how about the possibility of committing shirk by upholding man made crap next to what Allah sent down to us?

Cheers
- Fri 25 Dec, 2009 7:32 am
Post subject:
See bro The, this is a wise saying by Ahmed Subhy Mansour, an Egyptian who fled to the usa after he was oppressed in Egypt, he was a professor in Azhar, as well an Azhar graduate who discovered the crap in the manm ade hadith so he started attacking it, and that is why he was oppressed, see what he says below:

If you wanted to assassinate an adversary by poison, it is inconceivable that you bring him a glass full of poison and ask him to drink it. It is more reasonable that you bring him a glass of honey laced with enough poison to get the job done. This is exactly what Al-Bukhari has done. He placed his concentrated poison in the middle of thousands of harmless Hadiths, some of which say something positive, and others do not say much at all. He made sure to plant some Hadiths that praise and laud the prophet, with special attention to Hadiths narrated by Abu Hureira that urge and exhort obedience to the Sultan, any Sultan, thereby guaranteeing that his Sahih will always receive protection from governing authority, why shouldn�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t be so, and Al-Bukhari always warns against sedition, discord, dissension and strife against the Sultan.
- Fri 25 Dec, 2009 1:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Muhammad's words apart from the Quran
Okay, buddy, let me try to clarify using an example. I am not sure how good an example this is, so if you find it not to your liking then let me know; I will try to come up with another.

Suppose a Muslim or a non-Muslim comes up to you and tells you that the Quran orders the killing of all non-Muslims. What will you do?
- Fri 25 Dec, 2009 3:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Muhammad's words apart from the Quran
The wrote:
Okay, buddy, let me try to clarify using an example. I am not sure how good an example this is, so if you find it not to your liking then let me know; I will try to come up with another.

Suppose a Muslim or a non-Muslim comes up to you and tells you that the Quran orders the killing of all non-Muslims. What will you do?


For the Muslim, I will dismiss him in the rubbish bin straight away and not even answer him

For the non muslim, I will reject it until he brings verses from the Quran (without taking it out of context) proving his allegation. I have been through that many times, bro

Cheers
- Fri 25 Dec, 2009 4:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Muhammad's words apart from the Quran
Suppose a non-Muslim posts the following on a forum:

The following are only some of the verses in the Qur'an that can and have been used in the history of Islam in support of violence in the name of God and the glories of martyrdom in a holy war.

2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you ... And slay them wherever ye catch them ... And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God ..."

How would you proceed?
- Fri 25 Dec, 2009 4:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Muhammad's words apart from the Quran
The wrote:
Suppose a non-Muslim posts the following on a forum:

The following are only some of the verses in the Qur'an that can and have been used in the history of Islam in support of violence in the name of God and the glories of martyrdom in a holy war.

2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you ... And slay them wherever ye catch them ... And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God ..."

How would you proceed?


Salam mate

I have already replied to this, I think on my slam dunk show, but that is ok, I will copy in here today inshaallah, I just need to finish another comment about Malik's brothel, then look for it and copy it here sometime today

Take care
- Fri 25 Dec, 2009 4:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Muhammad's words apart from the Quran
That's fine, buddy, I went through the slam dunk thread. You reply to the "allegations" and "contradictions" with something or the other. And so would anybody else.

Why should we then suppose that whenever a non-Muslim twisted a verse, or a Muslim came seeking a sincere explanation, Muhammad himself would not have done some explaining?
- Fri 25 Dec, 2009 4:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Muhammad's words apart from the Quran
The wrote:
That's fine, buddy, I went through the slam dunk thread. You reply to the "allegations" and "contradictions" with something or the other. And so would anybody else.

Why should we then suppose that whenever a non-Muslim twisted a verse, or a Muslim came seeking a sincere explanation, Muhammad himself would not have done some explaining?


I am sure he did, and many even were recorded, the proplem here we cannot know with certainity, it is all conjectures.

For me it is enough to take from him, how to pray, how to fast and how to do hajj, other than that, all we need to do is written in the Quran

If the prophet standing in front of me, i.e. I live during his time, then fine, everything he says will be obeyed without question, but that is not the case 1400 years later

And as I said, I cannot put myself in a situation where there is an atom weight of possible shirk.

For example if you do not accept stoning the married adulterers, then that should be enough reason to dismiss the whole book

Cheers
- Fri 25 Dec, 2009 6:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Muhammad's words apart from the Quran
I agree that fourteen hundred years later we cannot be certain of anything, and I am not talking about the ahadith books of today.

But Muhammad, in explaining the verses to Muslims or non-Muslims, and anybody who heard him and reproduced his words faithfully while engaging in an explanation/defense of the Quran, would not be in the wrong. That is what I am driving at.
- Fri 25 Dec, 2009 6:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Muhammad's words apart from the Quran
The wrote:
I agree that fourteen hundred years later we cannot be certain of anything, and I am not talking about the ahadith books of today.

But Muhammad, in explaining the verses to Muslims or non-Muslims, and anybody who heard him and reproduced his words faithfully while engaging in an explanation/defense of the Quran, would not be in the wrong. That is what I am driving at.


Fine, but we cannot allow ourselves to look like hypocrites by accepting some and rejecting the rest, it is either we accept all or reject all, if we accept part of it then we are indirectly giving some grounds for our enemy to use the part that we reject, however if we reject the whole thing. Period, then no ground will be given at all

Also knowing how to pray or fast or do Hajj should be inherited practically, i.e. we still do not need written materials for that under the name of sunnah

Cheers
- Fri 25 Dec, 2009 6:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Muhammad's words apart from the Quran
I agree. The reason I brought this up is that I run across many who call themselves "Quran Aloners" and who write tomes to justify their position, yet argue that Muhammad himself could not have spoken anything other than the Quranic verses, and that if he did then he was wrong and whatever he said is wortheless. It is hypocritical to think that a so-called "Quan Aloner" is more qualified than Muhammad to say something in explanation/defense of the Quran.

I don't agree with you about the practical inheritance, but that is another issue.
- Fri 25 Dec, 2009 9:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Muhammad's words apart from the Quran
The wrote:
I agree. The reason I brought this up is that I run across many who call themselves "Quran Aloners" and who write tomes to justify their position, yet argue that Muhammad himself could not have spoken anything other than the Quranic verses, and that if he did then he was wrong and whatever he said is wortheless. It is hypocritical to think that a so-called "Quan Aloner" is more qualified than Muhammad to say something in explanation/defense of the Quran.

I don't agree with you about the practical inheritance, but that is another issue.


I actually never called myself Quran aloner nor that i will ever call myself as such, I am only a Muslim

For the written sunnah, so how do you think the Muslim,s were doing in the 200 years before these manmade books were collected?

And can you give me some example of sunnah that you have learnt YOURSELF (not from anyone else) through these man made books?

Cheers
- Fri 25 Dec, 2009 11:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Muhammad's words apart from the Quran
I am aware that you don't call yourself a "Quran Aloner".

I believe in the accuracy of neither the ahadith books nor of "practical inheritance".
- Fri 25 Dec, 2009 11:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Muhammad's words apart from the Quran
The wrote:
I am aware that you don't call yourself a "Quran Aloner".

I believe in the accuracy of neither the ahadith books nor of "practical inheritance".


I actually believe in the accuracy of the prayer as inherited, but not Hajj, Hajj for me is what is stated in the Quran, kissing the kabaa or throwing stones on a statue of the devile do not make any sense to me

I also reject that Zakah has a preset figure of 2.5% or whatever
- Sat 26 Dec, 2009 4:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Muhammad's words apart from the Quran
I don't see the reason for singling out salat as having been accurately handed down.
- Sat 26 Dec, 2009 5:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Muhammad's words apart from the Quran
The wrote:
I don't see the reason for singling out salat as having been accurately handed down.


Sure, I actually cannot prove that it is correctly inherited, however I see nothing wrong or shirky about the way it is done, also the prayer is commanded by Allah, i.e. it is not Muhammed who decreed it

cheers
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